15 comments so far
tee hee. That summary made me smile.
My first DK was Unholy all the way, until she dual spec’d into Blood for tanking (with lots of help from your site). Though I didnt get very far with that toon.
A few weeks ago (perhaps a month and bit now), I started a fresh DK on a new server and leveled as Blood with the intention of tanking. However, I never got around to actually tanking. Since then, I’ve been doing alot of PvP and a bit of instance PvE as Unholy, and occasionally I visit IF and Archerus to practice my Blood tank rotation against the dummies. I’ve still not worked up the nerve to PUG tank yet.
Anyhow, I keep seeing posts all over the place about how Frost is the tank spec. And it may well be, for the EJ crowd and progression raiders, but for instance runners, I think Frost Presence and a def capped outfit is about all you need.
I won’t argue what is the best for “end game raiding”. I will tell you that Frost and Unholy do not remotely compete with Blood for 5man tanking. The additional self healing from Blood puts it far and away beyond the other specs. When I can go pull a pack of mobs in a 5 man and live as Blood w/o a healer, but cannot in the same scenario as Frost/Unholy, that should tell you something. And I’ve got far more play time as those 2 specs than I do as Blood.
I have always been a fan of Blood Tanking but must admit that I recently levelled a DK to 70 and have started tanking as Frost. The main reason is with Glyphed Howling Blast the dps has no chance of getting the aggro off me, the snap aggro is fantastic.
The thing about Frost tanking is that it’s idiot-proof. The idiots being the dps that can’t figure out how to single target and just AoE the whole instance or the hunter/warlock that sends his pet halfway down the hallway and pulls two or three packs. HB-BB-BB-IT-PS-BT-Pest and the dps won’t be able to get aggro off you with a crowbar and a tow truck. That said, Blood is definitely tops for survivability when things go wrong, and let’s face it in a PuG things *will* go wrong.
TL:DR I agree with SJ that Blood > Frost for leveling, but when it comes to heroics gimme Frost!
I, too, am a big fan of powerlevelling. You mention Sethek Halls as the best dungeon to use in Outland. Personally, I’ve used Ramparts to get toons to 60 but only because it’s right there. After that I go to Mana Tombs because it’s easy to et back to the beginning. I’ve avoided Sethek Halls b/c someone uttered the dreaded phrase “Mind Control” about it and so never even looked at it.
If you have any tips about the best way to get through there I’d really appreciate it. There are only two toons I have left to bring up to 60 and then a couple others that still need to get to 65 or 68 depending on how quickly I can wrap it all up.
And on the same subject, I’ve always used Dire Maul to go from 45-55. At first it was to get librams for my GF (she was the one who decided on a whim that she wanted to use refer-a-friend) but now that she isn’t there to control the toons getting levelled the pats in that place are driving me crazy. Anyway, I’m glad I found your site – I always love having a new place to check for stuff to read.
I love Blood tanking but the only problem I find now is with the 5 man’s I am doing my AoE threat is sometimes a worry. I mean, I’ll DnD, put diseases up and then spread them and then spend my 5 seconds waiting on runes CD and relying on RS to grab full aggro. Any tips on that front? I know to Blood Boil on more than 2 mobs and HS on 2 or 1 but sometimes its a bit risky compared to the threat of Frost.
But yeah, Unholy for DPS and Blood for Tanking anyday.
I level frost DW. Personally I think im going at a decent rate. I’m not really going for speed but I think that leveling as the spec that I will raid with makes me that much better at playing in the end. By the time I do hit 80 I will have everything figured out and be ready to go right out of the gate.
Misconceptions about Frost: People think you need that “snap” agro from the burst capacity of Frost, and you just don’t. Drop DnD as your lead in, IT, PS, Pest, RP, and you’re done. Following up with BB and HS as needed, combined with a talented/glyphed DnD is MORE than enough. I never lost agro in dungeons. And if you group with idiots who start attacking before you even have DnD down, I let them die. People like that are morons and deserve repair bills. That’s for 5man heroics too btw. Threat is not an issue for Blood. People *think* it is, but in actuality it’s not.
For the PuG morons who still have trouble, I had a simple macro that told people don’t dps until after you see the DnD down. I never had a problem as Blood leveling or in heroics.
DW Frost leveling will level up fine. However I have tried all leveling possibilities with a DK now. And DW Frost is the least effective sadly. The inherent reason for that is simply because DW is hit rating intensive, but also because it does not have the AoE/movement advantages of Unholy or the healing advantages of Blood.
A couple of quick caveats:
1) If you are talking about 5 man tanking, Blood is not the only option. The large health pool and self healing are great, but the aggro doesn’t compete. If you play well and have decent gear, you can figure it out. That having been said, with mediocre gear and skill, a Frost can still hold aggro (and stay alive). I Blood tank and like it the most. But, I do miss the days of frost tanking aggro. It just didn’t have the versatility I needed for endgame content.
In the end, all DK specs will work for 5MAN tanking.
Blood: Great health pools, self healing, group buff, and SINGLE target threat.
Frost: Best mitigation. No group buff. Did I mention best mitigation? Also some pretty great aggro for both AoE and Single target.
Unholy: Bone shield rules in single target situations, but if you get hit more than 4 times in a minute, the cooldown is too long. GREAT aoe aggro. Don’t try for end game content.
2) DPS: While it’s true that Unholy tends to top the DPS charts, the distance between Unholy and Blood on single target fights isn’t so great that it is a ‘clear choice.’ Frankly, I think unholy is more fun. Plus, the buff is great for casters. In my 10 man group, however, we need the melee buff more. I might do more damage as unholy, but not so much that one shouldn’t consider blood.
Definately agree with the post. Blood tanking is WIN in 5 mans. I personally use frost for tanking in raids tho, mainly because if i get stuck with a warrior tank who can’t get aoe threat, my raid won’t die.
Also agree with unholy leveling, I leveled Unholy back when wrath came out and took the movement talents immediatley. The leveling goes extremely fast with all the aoe pulls and movement speed increase. Also you can pretty much do any group quest solo, and I do mean ANY group quest. Of course this was back when dk’s were pretty OP. Unholy could tank Heroics in DPS gear in frost presence, it was freakin crazy back then. IBF and bone shield rotation was way cool.
Milkbone:
“Blood is not the only option” You have three specs. Of course it’s not the only option. That’s like saying the sky is blue. If you come here to look for advice however I am going to tell you what you *should* be doing.
You say that the agro does not compete. Well sir, you are wrong. I leveled 70-80 as a Blood tank after playing as an Unholy DK for well over a year with the occasional Frost specs throughout. For 10 levels I was in a dungeon non-stop as a Blood tank and *never* once had agro issues. If you do the same thing (while LEVELING, which is what this post is about) and have agro issues, then you are doing something wrong. I don’t intend to be mean, but that’s the truth.
The statement that they all work “great” is not true. When you can keep threat the entire time without issue and can also solo tank an entire pack of mobs without a healer without AotD consistently over 10 times, *THEN* you’re doing “great”. And Frost and Unholy just can’t do that consistently. Sorry. That is *great* imo.
RAIDS: Which to point out, this post is again about leveling, not 80+ content. Because Blood can only compare to Unholy for single target dps, and loses the game when dealing with AoE, that makes Unholy better by definition. As far as buffs, while the 13% magic buff from Unholy is far superior to Blood’s buffs, if you have a predominantly melee dps group in 10 man of course that could make Blood a priority. As with all advice, it is intended for the “majority”. There can, and will be, exceptions based upon play style, preferences, group make up, etc…
The huge gaping hole in blood tanking is snap AOE aggro on the fly. In most of your leveling dungeons, that’s not an issue so long as you control the pacing. DnD, set up diseases, pestilence, and you’re golden. Just ensure that you have Rune Strike macroed in everywhere, e.g.:
#showtooltip Death Strike
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Rune Strike
/cast Death Strike
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()
/startattack
(I jam /startattack everywhere just so that I wouldn’t have to worry about having runes, etc available if I go tab target switching: just hit any attack, and know you’ll at least be autoattacking.)
Where blood tanking has utterly failed me (to the extent that I stopped tanking on my DK and leveled a bear instead) was the HoR gauntlet. PoS ramp and tunnel are damned unpleasant, but I got through them; however, the strung out waves of mobs in the gauntlet are as bad as a situation can get for a blood tank.
DnD’s cooldown makes it available about every 2nd wave, but do you have the right runes up? Empower Rune Weapon’s 5 minute cooldown just isn’t enough. Blood Boil just doesn’t generate enough threat unless you have diseases spread around, and how many times has the mob from which you’re going to Pestilence died just before you hit the button?
Spent about an hour trying to take down the gauntlet once early on…even got on vent with the guild’s DK tank for advice. Know that fight a lot better now, it may’ve been that the 3 PUG DPS just couldn’t kill the waves fast enough, but I haven’t been motivated to go back and try again.
The bear, on the other hand, has tanked the gauntlet in mostly blues with a few greens and purples.
I’m a dk through and through. I’ve respec’d *literally* dozens of times to personally try out different combinations of talents. I’ve leveled many dk’s on other servers just to try out other concepts. In other words, I have put some serious time into building first-hand in-depth knowledge of how dk’s work best.
At this moment, I’m running a blood/unholy hybrid tank as my main spec. My dps isn’t what it could be if I just picked on over the other, but I’ve found that blood’s self-heals just can’t be beat (what other tank can solo Loken in H HoL after the rest of the party gets nuked in the first nova?). As for the unholy? Let me say that the perma-ghoul is a vastly underrated ability.
2 major benefits of the perma-ghoul: instant death pact as an “oh shit” button. No waiting for slow dead n ugly to climb out of the ground. 2nd, skillful control of your minion can help you pull packs of mobs *much* faster.
All of these thing apply to leveling. In fact, even if you’re leveling a dps, taking self-preservation talents doesn’t hurt – staying alive means less down time in gy runs, and you can (and should) respec when you ding 80 anyway.
As for HoR, I have no problems with threat, thanks to Morbidity’s reduction to DnD’s cd. Glyph it, love it. Don’t worry about killing everything yourself, just keep the DnD down and keep your group alive. DG as much as possible to bring those pesky mages back into range.
Best of all, as a blood tank, you don’t have to care about kill order for those waves. What little you can’t just ignore, you can heal through easily.
@Jack: Thank you for all your work, research and random thoughts alike. Your site is the first place I go for my weekly reading material during server maint!
gosh, this is the 1st time this year I have been back to the blog (since Nov of last year) and I am astounded at the changes in your thinking – Unholy, blood worms, etc (and do I need to say? Yes, say! say!) TANKING, a DK TANKING?!?! OMG, SJ, what brought this change about? Well, I am going to try and go backwards thru the site to see why and how this all came about. Glad to see you back to work, gaming and blogging!
If you are tanking in Heroics, I definitely do need the snap aggro that Frost provides when you are at lower gear levels when compared to your DPS’ raid gear (and even that it’s not always enough). However, I’m curious as to whether this changes based on the fact that, by definition, when you’re leveling through dungeon finder that you’re NOT dealing with highly geared DPS? Or said another way, is the need for snap aggro like Frost gives you only necessary when there is a large disparity between the DK Tank’s gear vs. the DPS’ gear in the DPS’ favor?
[...] to level more, but I find them pretty damn fun and Skeleton Jack’s introduction guide to levelling a DK is a very good starting point. All in all, whatever you level, try to have some fun, go against [...]