18
Jul

Preliminary 3.2 Frost and Dual Wield Specs for Death Knights

   Posted by: Skeleton Jack   in PTR, Specs

Heya guys!!  So, it’s time to finally talk about Dual Wielding specs for 3.2.  Oddly enough (at least for some), this is going to include both Frost and Unholy discussion.  Keep in mind with all posts about specs before a PTR release goes Live, that it’s impossible to perfectly predict the outcome. 

But I’m not going to keep you guessing about the future of Frost.  It does appear that the future of 2H Frost is dead, RIP.  Why?  Well the nerfs to Frost Strike have been abusive at best, and when combined with the scaling benefits of DW…well there’s just not much potential left for 2H.

Dual Wield Live

0/17/54 - Considered to be the best “cookie cutter” Dual Wield build currently available in 3.1 Live.

Basically this runs in Unholy Presence, and focuses on the maximum amount of GCD’s used possible for massive Runic Power (RP) generation for Death Coil’s.  While it is competitive, it does not top the charts by any stretch of the word.  This is basically for DW die hards only.

Frost Live

17/51/3 - Considered to be the best “cookie cutter” Frost build currently available in 3.1 Live.

Frost basically focuses on only using Frost Fever and ignoring Blood Plague.  This method relies heavily upon Rime procs, Glyph of Howling Blast, and Obliterate.  While there is also the “IT Machine Gun” spec which relies heavily upon UP and Glyph of Icy Touch.

There are some variations (for IT Machine Gun for example) which requires point shifts to talents like Death Rune Mastery, but that’s another post for another time.  When all is said and done, outside of Yogg-Saron and Hodir, Frost 2H has been a largely sub-par spec performing nowhere near as well as Unholy or Blood.

Frost and Dual Wield 3.2 PTR

As I said before, Frost 2H is basically dead.  Frost Strike has been severly nerfed due to primarily PvP reasons.  3.2 Frost Strike can now be dodged, parried, or blocked.  Also, the weapon damage bonus was reduced to 55%, down from 60%. 

Combined with the changes for DW like Threat of Thassarian (3/3 talent, req 35 points in Frost, 100% chance to deal damage with your off hand), better scaling damage from DW’ing over 2H, and more…RIP 2H.

Now here is the upside however.  Something is going to give, and Blizzard will eventually make future changes.  Why you ask?  Because of Unholy.

There are basically 2 big kids on the block for 3.2 DW:

Unholy DW

0/17/54 - 3.2 DW Unholy

The only question that comes in for DW Unholy is whether one of the Glyphs needs to be dropped so you can work in the new Glyph of Unholy Blight.  Since this spec so heavily relies upon Deathcoil damage, the new UB is a big deal.  Due to the UB bugs on PTR, and lack of raid testing, the current status is inconclusive.

Frost DW

3/51/17 – 3.2 DW Frost

Frost is a lil hinky however.  It doesn’t perform anymore like it did as a 2H spec.  First off your melee white damage will be significantly higher, which also means that Necrosis and Blood-caked Blade will be higher as well.  But then your special ability damage will be lower as well.

Frost Strike: Originally this was using two separate tables for the MH and OH weapon for hit/miss/crit.  So you could miss with your OH weapon, but hit with the MH weapon.  Last I heard this was fixed supposedly, but I cannot confirm that.  Also, only the MH strike uses a Killing Machine proc, meaning most of the benefit from KM is gone as it only applies to about half of a FS.

Outside of that this is a standard IT -> PS -> OB -> BS -> BS // OB -> OB -> OB rotation.  Not sure if the new disease buffs for dmg and Blood Strike will justify using 2 diseases or not, so we’ll see if this degenerates back into a HB single disease rotation.

BCB Normalization

An interesting side note is that BCB is no longer normalized.  Long story short on this is that instead of multiplying the base damage numbers by 2.4 (regardless of the weapon’s speed), BCB now multiplies the base damage by the weapon’s speed. 

What does that mean to you?  Fast weapons are no longer PWN for any Necrosis/BCB DW build.  Slow/Slow is now the desired weapon combinations for DW.

The DPS Winner

It’s Unholy DW actually.  Which is retarded.  DW Unholy is sub-par to Unholy 2H.  DW Frost is sub-par to DW Unholy.  2H Frost is sub-par to DW Frost.  So that means that both variations of Frost are not remotely on par to where they should be. 

While having DW Frost and Unholy being close in DPS is not too much of an issue, having DW Frost being equal to a tree not specialized in DW, and sub-par to 2H Unholy and 2H Blood is an issue.  The big question is whether Blizzard has noticed this detail.  If not, it is possible it will go Live and not be altered until 3.2.1 release.

End Story

ATM, Frost DW seems to be slightly under Unholy DW which means its basically sub-par for PvE dps balance.  Because it’s so difficult to actually test this in a raid environment on PTR, there’s no way to verify the theories or prove anything to Blizzard.  So this info could be wrong. 

But if it’s not, it means that unless they change something soon DW Frost won’t really be offering all that much until 3.2.1 release at earliest.  Worst case scenario is that there will be 2 viable DW specs available that don’t suck so much that you can’t get a raid spot with them.  But they won’t be top end 25man hard-mode content specs if things stay as they are.

-Suffer Well Brothers and Sisters.

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This entry was posted on Saturday, July 18th, 2009 at 10:52 pm and is filed under PTR, Specs. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.

23 comments so far

Tarragon
 1 

2 questions:
How does DW compare to 2 hand dps?
And, Is DW tanking viable at all?

July 19th, 2009 at 12:54 am
james
 2 

hay sj so with all this is dw frost/unholy better than 2h frost/unholy should i start rolling on 1h weapons ?

July 19th, 2009 at 1:56 am
soul
 3 

hey sj, ive been testing dw spec as well, anyway I just wanted to know exactly what presence you are using and what rotation for your unholy. I’ve been testing through frost dw and had better results with a 15/54/2 spec. btw this spec was very similar dps wise as my 2h dps live. anyway, if you can try out something like this and let me know watcha think :D

July 19th, 2009 at 3:02 am
Figworth
 4 

@James: DW is, to put it bluntly, worse in 3.2, than using a 2h weapon.

July 19th, 2009 at 7:54 am
Santorum
 5 

Quote:
“It?s Unholy DW actually. Which is retarded. DW Unholy is sub-par to Unholy 2H. DW Frost is sub-par to DW Unholy. 2H Frost is sub-par to DW Frost.”
Unholy 2H is the best looking, closely followed by Unholy DW. Its all in the article. Great Job as always SJ, btw is it fast/fast or slow/fast for dw in 3.2?

July 19th, 2009 at 11:44 am
Overdose
 6 

i’ve been check DW specs and i’ve always luv your spec SJ, but i’ve found that 51/8/12 is the only viable dw spec atm. It blows both of your unholy and frost specs out of water . I’ve only had 2h blood or 2h unholy top out this dw blood spec. feel free to put dw blood more to test plz i would like to see other players info on this

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=2305001531003303231123001351320003000000000000000000000002301303000000000000000000000000&glyph=181317060504&version=10116

July 19th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
 7 

For you OD that may be true. But as a whole, for the entire game, it is not true. Always keep in mind that your gear, your playstyle, and your experience play important factors in determining your dps.

I rock with Unholy, but I do less damage when I spec Blood. I’m less comfortable with the rotations and have gear decked for Unholy, not Blood. I have T7 BISI items + some T8 solid ones for Unholy, but when compared to Blood BISI, they’re only mediocre.

Unholy DW is the 3.1 winner hands down, overall. Always keep in mind though that for some players, they will do more dps with a different spec. People are different! ;)

DW Tanking is not really viable because whenever you fight a boss that doesn’t have the parry haste mechanic removed (read most bosses), because you are DW’ing you will be hasting their (the boss’s) attacks. Which means you’re taking more damage.

While DW is worse that a 2H Blood or 2H Unholy spec (though DW Frost is better than 2H Frost) in 3.2 PTR, I fully expect this to change. The community will have a fit if it doesn’t change, which means it will change.

July 19th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
Latture
 8 

Hey bro.
So basically not much has changed as far as dual wield goes? All that really changed is no more 2h Frost. DW still blows compared to the 2h..
Yeah thanks for that blizz.

July 19th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
Marv
 9 

Hi SJ,

I enjoy reading your site very much, but I am also one to question about everything I do not see proof of. So, my question is, can you back up those claims you put under “The DPS Winner” with anything?

July 21st, 2009 at 8:23 am
 10 

Marv, you want proof on DPS performance for PTR specs that cannot be tested with BISI gear in raids with full buffs/debuffs on multiple occasions, while some things are still bugged? Seriously? Think about that for a minute.

July 21st, 2009 at 9:29 am
Vespian
 11 

SJ. By what margin are we talking 2H Frost is dead exactly? I’m a Frost tank by heart and absolutely can’t cope with either UH or Blood (that’s why I’m specced Frost as dps as well (and actually doing alot more damage than I personally did as UH and alot more than those that are DPS as a mainspec) I don’t expect to be using a DW setup any time soon (due to the fact I’m wielding Worldcarver).

So the question is, basically, how does 2H dps/threat compare to live ?:) If the changes towards 2H from live to 3.2 are hardly noticable, for me, this change will have no effect, because I’m one of the few DK’s(I know) pushing a steady 7-9K TPS on a boss and can actually do with a little bit less. DW being better will not change that.

July 21st, 2009 at 10:19 am
Gerkin
 12 

A couple of comments one is that while frost dw maybe less raid dps. I bet ill see it pop more in PVP and I think that may have been Blizzards intention. Since most dks I know love their unholy dmg right now in pvp but would love to get some more utility too. Hello frost tree.
Another thing is why doesnt the cookie cutter build include Unbreakable Armor for dps. 25% str every 2 mins for 20 seconds seems like a fine way to spend A point to me. Maybe the numbers dont back that up? but i bet in most scenarios if a dk used it at the right moment AKA when u have hodir’s buffs or the other situational burn now moments the dps will make up for it.

July 21st, 2009 at 6:03 pm
 13 

For tanking 2H will still win hands down. DW’ing causes parry haste for most bosses, making DW sub-par for tanking in 3.1. ATM, I’ve not seen anything to suggest that the tanking stats gained from DW’ing two tank weapons can make up for this. Espeically because your TPS will require two slow 1H weapons for DW, and all the great tank 1H are fast.

2H DPS/TPS Frost compared to live is dipping quite a bit. FS is not only losing damage, but can also be dodged, blocked, and parried now in 3.2. Considering that FS is the number 1 source of dmg/tps for Frost, it’s going to suffer.

If you’ll notice the DW build is short on points already. Where would you like to take them from? Remember, cookie cutter builds are exactly that. Just a “standard” to use. Shifting a few points is always possible.

July 21st, 2009 at 11:02 pm
 14 

Any evidance that the HB-frost spec on live (17/51/3) is superior to the IT machine gun?

July 22nd, 2009 at 8:07 am
Vespian
 15 

Parry haste is less of a problem you make it to be SJ. I agree that for minmaxxing, you should never burden your guild with the extra hits you recieve, but it comes down to dropping 2 extra percentages of dodge.

Yes, Frost Strike will suffer some, I just wonder by how much. I’m currently still close to expertise softcap, so only parry affects me in PvE, or some bosses with shields perhaps..

Will we lose the RP we use on Parried FS? (thinking yes)

July 22nd, 2009 at 10:01 am
soul
 16 

hey this may help answer some questions people had. Like sj said “Slow/Slow is now the desired weapon combinations for DW. also if you have tried or use the hb rotation, try getting some good slow 1hs and see how that works out.reason being is that i use it live and rip out great dps and i tried it on ptr with so very poor 1hs and i pull the same if not more dps on a H dummy unbuffed

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=2305000500000000000000000000320053503520031123000330013510200000000000000000000000000000&glyph=181317060504&version=10116

July 22nd, 2009 at 10:59 pm
Marv
 17 

Hey SJ,

Thanks for the reply that I’ll quote here:
“Marv, you want proof on DPS performance for PTR specs that cannot be tested with BISI gear in raids with full buffs/debuffs on multiple occasions, while some things are still bugged? Seriously? Think about that for a minute.”

You got me there. Actually the facts you sum up there are exactly the reasons for me to ask the question.
But your claims about the relative value of dps specs in the PTR must have been based on something substantial, else why post it in such a conclusive manner?

July 24th, 2009 at 6:55 am
 18 

Nice builds and i agree i did some playing around and i created too builds that did very nice would love for you to try them out both on dual wield do some amazing dps

first is straight dps

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=2305000500000000000000000000325053503500030123000330013510000000000000000000000000000000&glyph=000000000000&version=10147

this is a blood/ frost build which is really nice bc of the dual wield the toughness talent directly effects the bladed armour talent which is added to both blades….its nice rolling nice dps…switched to my 2h dps was doing a tad bit better..but i have crapy 2h weapons

next build changes one thing,, and bleive it or not its a major one

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=2305000500030000000000000000320053503500030123000330013512000000000000000000000000000000&glyph=000000000000&version=10147

basically remove the toughness talent and put it into healing and spell dmg, i like this build alot for going against large group of mobs u can through out dps and heal urself. however not as much dps as the earlier one

but test these out tell me what you think

thank you

July 25th, 2009 at 1:38 am
 19 

the second one is what i would consider the preferred one with ability to heal and the ridiculous crit rating…pulling dont need white dmg here lol….however i am fearful of the white dmg bc it stays the same

July 25th, 2009 at 2:14 am
Knitemare
 20 

So many specs for different outcomes…basically we need to know if dw tanking is viable in 3.2(e.g Sen’jin Protectorsx2) and what talent load out is the best for this to happen.Also will Blood still be the best dps spec or are we looking at say a blood/frost hybrid?

July 28th, 2009 at 5:46 am
dylan
 21 

hey for that blood dual wield spec what is the rotation on it i would like to try it out

August 10th, 2009 at 6:59 pm
ashlessburn
 22 

wish i could tell you….love it i run diseases first thne i run all rp down then when i do my runes…my rp is back up

August 11th, 2009 at 1:43 am
Dre
 23 

Sup SJ,
I’ve been using a 15/51/3 build for dw frost, i have decent slow/slow 1h’s, both 219, nothing bad nothing great, was wondering if you knew anyway to improve on said spec, i feel like losing the bladed armor and the 5% crit are too big to move my points to the unholy tree

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=2305000500000000000000000000320053503500031123000331013510300000000000000000000000000000&glyph=131817060504&version=10026

August 17th, 2009 at 7:35 pm

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