Heya guys!!  I had not intended to delve to greatly into this, however I’ve seen a great deal of outrage (both here and on other forums) about the intended nerfs for DW DK specs and Summon Gargoyle.  So lets talk about this for a minute.

Summon Gargoyle

This is a 21 point Unholy talent.  So the selling point here is that any spec can get this talent easily while still dropping 50 points into their main tree.  In addition to that, it is very easily accessible to any Hybrid spec.  So the end result is that every top end dps PvE spec in the game at the moment includes Summon Gargoyle as part of their build.

Now before you say, “But my spec doesn’t have Gargoyle!!”  Read what I said, “So the end result is that every top end dps PvE spec in the game at the moment includes Summon Gargoyle as part of their build.”  That is not to say other specs currently suck, but that the highest performing dps specs in game at the moment all include Gargoyle.  Whether it be Blood, Frost, Unholy, or a Hybrid build.

Now lets step back a minute and look at all of the other classes in WoW as if we did not currently play any specific class.  Try to gain some objectivity.  What class out there has one 21 point talent that is so valuable and OP that every single top end PvE spec goes out of their way to include it if they want to break meters and be “ZOMG DAS UBER!!!”  There is not one.  None.

That fact alone should be ringing alarm bells.

Now the side bar perspective here is that if Summon Gargoyle was to be seen as an “Unholy” pet then this would be more of an acceptable talent.  Even though it can easily produce 15% of your dps, were it a tree specific advantage it would not be as much of an issue.  Similar to how only Frost Mages have Water Elementals.  Were Blizzard to move Summon Gargoyle deeper into the Unholy tree and only marginally reduce it’s dps, then any issue would be moot.  Unholy is the Pet tree.

As things stand however our lil Gargoyle is entirely out of whack as it is.

Dual Wield – How it should be…

Blizzard and many posters are trying to say how the big problem at the moment with DW is that Killing Machine is too OP with 2 fast weapons.  *shrug*  The fact is that it is only part of the problem.  And to make matters worse Blizzard is compounding the problem with the removal of the 6 sec CD on Howling Blast with the 3.0.8 patch.

Three major factors cause DW specs to be problematic.  Howling Blast, Summon Gargoyle, and Killing Machine.  HB and SG are very very powerful talents to begin with, especially with Howling Blast comboing off of Rime.  Add in an obscene proc rate from KM when you have two very fast weapons, and all of the other stacking spell damage talents from Frost and Unholy…it gets nightmarish.  Too many different things all stacking and multiplying upon themselves.  It adds up.

The easiest fix would be to simply move both HB and SG deeper into their respective trees.  Shaman recently saw something similar.  The Enhancement talent Mental Quickness had to be moved deeper into the Enhancement tree because the Elemental shaman were specing deeply into Enhancement just to get the bonus spell power from it, which was increasing their dps more than any talent combination in the Elemental tree.

A similar change to Unholy and Frost would alleviate the “min/maxed” builds coming out from Hybrid DW specs which currently outperform all 2H specs.  Were these talents both moved into the 41 Tier, combo issues would be null and void.

As to KM, they currently seek to make a change moving this to a PPM, or Proc Per Minute, effect which would be awful.  I hate to go back to Shaman again, but yet again a similar answer lies right there.  Back in the day, the Windfury weapon imbue was so ungodly powerful for DW, they they had to put an internal cooldown on the proc rate.  Basically if your MH procs a WF proc, then neither your MH or your OH can proc WF again for 3 seconds.  Applying a similar effect to KM solves the issue of KM becoming too powerful with super fast weapons.  Give KM an internal cooldown, and viola!!  /win

So…wtf explain why nerf again?!!?

OK…

Lore is controlled by Blizzard.  But the fact is, they only like to cause upheaval in their Lore when either it makes sense, or in their “infinite wisdom” it becomes a good move.  Read: “Space Alien Gypsies”.  Don’t get me wrong…I like the Draenei.  But space ships…REALLY!?!?  REALLY!?!?!?  WTF!?!?  /sigh

Blizzard has stated emphatically, in several different ways on more than one occasion, that they do not want Death Knights to be a Dual Wield class.  That isn’t to say they don’t want the option to be available to them.  But they don’t want to see every single DK DW in PvE content because it’s so much more OP than 2H builds.

Basically this comes down to a design flaw that does not meet the expectation of the designer.  If you make something that is supposed to be awesome with x and good with y, but suddenly you find out it’s better with y than x…well then you have a problem.  X is 2h, and Y is DW.  They wanted DK’s to be able to DW if they wanted to and to be good at it.  But not to the point where it beats every conceivable 2H build available.  Hence, you have a design flaw.

While I think their designers make a lot of obvious mistakes because they are too far removed from the game itself, this is one you have to really back them up on.  It’s not supposed to be this way, so I see nothing wrong with their adjustment of it.  In the end it is fair to expect DW to be brought to a point where it is within a 5-10% dps loss from 2H builds, because that is the design.  This isn’t a surpise or new to anyone who has read up on DK’s.  We’re not supposed to be primarily DW.  People shouldn’t act like it’s something they deserve.  Blizz said up front DK’s are 2H’er guys.

And the Gargoyle nerf should be readily apparent at this point.

I hope this makes everything make more sense for some of you guys.  I am behind the concept that changes need to be made (read: “nerf”) to both SG and DW; however, I am not 100% that the path Blizzard is choosing is the correct one.  That means you guys need to carry out the good word and make sure people and especially Blizzard know to make the right changes and why.

Be prepared.  Knowledge is Power.  Nothing will ever change if you don’t speak your mind.

-Suffer Well Brothers and Sisters.

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12 comments so far

David
 1 

Seriously? DKs are complaining about this? Dps DKs are currently the most OP class/spec in ALL of wow. If you take an arms warrior, unholy DK and ret paladin and stick them all in full heroics gear (which was pretty common before Naxx started being run):
Spiked titansteel, Gold amulet of the kings, pauldrons of lightning revenant, bloodied waters, bp of undeath, vengeance bindings, gilt edged leather gloves, flame bathed girdle, staggering legplates, death inured sabatons, mobius band + frosted thorns, mirror of truth + meteorite and titansteel destroyer. Give them all +str gems and enchants and look at the dps.

I’ve done this.

Ret and Warrior are pretty close. The Unholy DK (2h mind you not even DW) blows them both out of the water…WITHOUT gargoyle.

This is just the start of the nerfs, I fully expect more I’m just trying to get all the dps I can out of my DK before they hit.

January 6th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
 2 

Hey SJ,

Good post but your missing somethings. Killing Machine is not the biggest reason why DW just own, nor is it with Summon Garg. While I agree Garg and KM are very nice have its not the main reason. Explain to me why Icy Touches are critting for 6k (w/o KM) and Howling Blast crtting for 12k again without KM. The reason why our DPS is such huge amounts is honestly because of AP and Haste. If your capped on Expertise and Hit with the right amount of AP and Haste your spells will hit for insane amounts even without any ability procs. Remember the more haste you have based on weapons, the faster your runes regenerate. I have been doing a lot of testing on this theory and it seems like it works.

To be truly honest, Blizzard can not do much to this as most of the talents are a staple for tanking. Nerfing a lot of these talents either be in Frost or Unholy is going to make less DK tanks. If Blizzard ends up changing DKs talent system around to where Garg is deeper in the tree, thats ok, but if they nerf anything off from Unholy or Frost including Rime, then you might as well not bring in a DK to tank anymore. So yes Blizzard has to be very careful with the nerfs here because it can litterly screw up the DK class 100%.

If Blizzard does not want to see DW builds then honestly they should of never given us to option to do so.

January 6th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Madbeaver
 3 

I dont know what all the fuss is about, and DK’s certainly shouldn’t “want” their class to get nerfed in anyway. I can find raid stats posted all over the web, from both elite guilds down to noob casual’s, where Rogues, Hunters, Warlocks, and Mages out dps the DK’s.

Thats not to say that DK’s aren’t capable of topping the DPS meter, but its not the norm. Matter of fact, its hard to find DK’s at the top of any real DPS meter in a serious raid.

So why do anything to nerf them? I’ll admit that maybe the Gargoyle needs to be moved farther down the Unholy tree, but nothing else really seems too out of line……

Now, before you throw the noob book at me, take a look at what the pure dps DK brings to a raid. Ummm, not much. Our Horn buff and haste buff is just like the shaman totems. Matter of fact, i’d rather have the totem. Thats it, we dont bring anything else. Say what you want about blood aura or unholy aura, but they are pretty much meaningless. Not like they are really going to make a difference in a win/lose situation….you will win or lose any encounter just as easily with them as you would without them.

Also, to satisfy my curiosity, can someone point me to all of these Blizzard quotes or threads where the developers are outright stating they want the DK’s to be 2h users? I’ve been mulling this over with some of my other hardcore buddies, and its just hard to swallow that Blizzard would come out and say that they WANT to buttonhole DK’s into being 2h. If that were the case, they would take DW completely away from their trees. As it stands, it only makes sense that blizzard leaves it in the hands of the player to decide what he wants to do. At the same time, however, it is up to Blizzard to ensure that if you spec to be DPS that both DW and 2h builds should somehow be comparable.

Thanks again Jack!

January 6th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
Broderick
 4 

Hey SJ, quick question for you. I just hit 80 a few days ago and got my epic flyer. Is there a particular spec that you think is best for farming/daily quests? My play time is really limited, so I don’t know how often I’ll be able to do Heroics and such. Love the site, I’ve learned a ton!!!

January 6th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
Todesritter
 5 

Broderick,

From my experience, I’d take a look at a 2H unholy build. Mind you this is pre-patch. Although post patch a Blood spec might be good to, for survival. Honestly though if you’re not raiding or doing heroics, Spec in the talents that you have the most fun with, its a game and if you’re not having fun, why play?

January 6th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
Kharkuss
 6 

I think Blizz dropped the ball on this one. If they intended DKs to be a 2h class, they shouldn’t have given them the option to DW. But they did and now it’s “Clean Up! Aisle 6!” Personally, I’m slightly annoyed at having survived the “lol dw dknub” phase only to have the rug pulled out from under me. But in the same breath, I agree it does need a nerf, tho I’d like to see it remain viable as a raid spec.

In the broader sceme of things, I think we all need to hold onto our proverbial hats for a while. Admit it or not, the entire class is OP. Blizz knows it. Every other class screams it. It’s only a matter of time before we see our DPS go down significantly, no matter the spec. Until then, enjoy it while it lasts :)

January 7th, 2009 at 9:50 am
Doomchicken
 7 

Hey SJ, when will the weapon best in slot list come out?

January 7th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
Doomchicken
 8 

Hey maybe they will make another retarded decision and allow DKs to duel wield 2 handers as well, that way it makes this whole arguement pointless.

January 7th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
 9 

I’m currently DW away. Topped dps charts. And feeling totally guilty doing it. I’m playing worse than I did as 2h Unholy, yet doing more dps. Hell, I don’t even need the gargoyle. It’s daft.

That and I hate DW. Always been a big stick fan.

January 8th, 2009 at 1:59 am
phantomlimb
 10 

frostmoon.. KM makes it crit doesnt increase the dmg from crits so you stating that there crits are crazy “EVEN WITHOUGHT THERE PROCS!!” zomg it would be the same.. imagine that

January 8th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
claxpumon
 11 

Hey SJ great article about current issues with DW hybrid DKs. I was tanking a heroic one day and recount meters literally showed the hybrid dw dk popping ~40% of the party damage. This wasn’t due to other dpsers lacking gear or skill. The DK was simply specced and geared right. My guildies (comprised of mainly IRL friends) currently want me to respec dps so we can try various raid instances since tanking and heals are covered. Also to add to the issue, with haste on rune recovery speed; I’ve seen DKs using non-plate items (not to say that is not allowed since our cap is plate anyways) to add to missing haste bonus or other bonuses. I didn’t notice too much +haste plate gear but noticed many leather/mail combo with lots of added haste. If this does play a marginal part in this issue, I suggest Blizz allowing DKs to only wear plate gear without nerfing the spec itself. Since it is a hero class, it should be reviewed under different circumstances. Also for substitution to nerfing specs, I would suggest increasing the hit cap for DW-ers. This is just a thought but this could go well enough so that it gives DW DK community a chance to swing two weapons with respect but gear-permitting. (Kinda like pre-WoTLK rogue specs. raiders started phasing off of combat tree as their gears got better such as muta rogues or hybriders.) Blue posts indicate that they are investigating and I truly hope that theres a bug somewhere with KM /w added haste effects. But hey, we know Blizzard can’t make everybody happy and everybody is still willing to play WoW despite nerfs. By the way, what happened to all the warlocks?

January 13th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
 12 

KM at a 5 PPM is working properly. It’s just obvious that some idiots in Blizzard don’t understand the mechanics of their own game, or they’d have realized instantly that a 5 PPM per weapon was ludicrous.

January 13th, 2009 at 6:28 pm

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